The “Decade of Building State Capability” podcast series features interviews with practitioners who reflect on their experience using the PDIA approach and their engagement with Building State Capability over the past 10 years. Today, BSC Director Salimah Samji interviews Awa Touray to hear more about how she is utilizing the PDIA approach as she works to resolve public problems. Awa is the Deputy Chief of Party for USAID’s Education Systems Strengthening Activity (ESSA) in Liberia, a project that uses PDIA as a key approach to build a more capable education system. She joined FHI 360, a global development organization, in July 2023. Prior to joining FHI 360, Awa worked as an international consultant on an EU funded State Building Contract in Sierra Leone, an Associate and Public Financial Management Specialist at CABRI, and as a public servant at the Gambian Ministry of Finance, where she was involved in various PFM initiatives. She has a Master’s in Public Policy from the National University of Singapore, where she was awarded the Lee Kuan Yew Scholarship for academic excellence. She also holds a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science from the University of Ghana. Awa has a passion for public policy and development.
To learn more about Building State Capability (BSC), visit the website, access the PDIA toolkit, read BSC blog posts, and listen to the podcasts.
Salimah Samji Welcome to the Reflecting on a Decade of Building State Capability Podcast series. On today's podcast I have with me Awa Touray. Awa joined us and we met her for the first time in May 2017 when she participated in our Building Public Financial Management Capability program that we ran with CABRI in South Africa as a participant from her country team, The Gambia. Welcome, Awa.
Awa Touray Thank you, Salimah. Thanks for having me.
Salimah Samji So why don't we start with we met you in 2017, you were chosen to be on this team for some training. And then, you know, you start this program and you show up to South Africa. What was that experience like in this PDIA action learning program?
Awa Touray Well, it started off, I was nominated thinking it was going to be just like any other training. You go, you do a workshop, do a few courses, and then you go back home and you know, things are normal. But we went in. You realize that this is very different than any other training that we were going to do. In fact, it was not just a training. We were being introduced to this really exciting method. I remember me and my team members were really excited as we realized that this was really hands on. So that was something that was very intriguing and that's something that was built upon every day of the training, right? So different components of what PDIA was, we had different tools that were being introduced to. For instance, I knew what an Ishikawa diagram was, but I had never used it in that way. So first of all, the question of what is it that is urgent to you and what is the pressing challenge for you that you would like to tackle in your ministry? I had been in the ministry for about two, three years at the time, but I had never been really given an opportunity or empowered to be able to take on a challenge or problem on my own or as a team. So that in and of itself was very exciting, right? So I felt empowered as one of the most junior members of the Gambian team at the time to be able to do something different and just something that was really hands on. So I was very excited and felt very, very empowered as a civil servant.
Salimah Samji And over the seven month period working in your team, what did you learn? What did you achieve? What did that process look like for you?
Awa Touray I think one of the first aha moments was that we had been identifying problems the wrong way, mostly front loading solutions and identifying them as problems. So the framing of the problem was one of the lessons for us as a team. So we had a lot of aha moments with Neil and Matt as we identified what it is we wanted to tackle. And essentially we had settled on a problem around the misalignments in the Gambian budget because of high environments in arrears. And as we dug deep we realized that there were so many different moving parts. Right. And then that was another aha moment because we usually also approach reforms or address these problems with a single solution. But we realized that there were many causes. There are many the root causes to these problems and many, many, many sub causes that require the intervention of various stakeholders. Again, something very different in the way that we had been addressing systemic issues within the ministry or within PFM. So after identifying what we felt was a pressing need or pressing problem, we deconstructed it. We went back home and essentially engaged everybody that is pertinent to the problem. We even set up what we called a Fishbone team within the Ministry of Finance. Everybody called us the CABRI team, right, because as soon as they saw us coming they knew that we were about to set up a meeting or about to engage them on something regarding our problem or fishbone or something. So what we had done in order to sort of institutionalize these engagements or set up what we call the Fishbone team, which consisted of representatives from every direction within the Ministry of Finance. So on a consistent basis, we would meet with these representatives to review our Fishbone, make sure we were all on the same page, review based on different perspectives that were had. And also we wanted to make sure that whatever solutions that came out of that process was co-produced and it was just not a group of six individuals within the budget directives driving this process. So we wanted everybody within the ministry to understand what we were doing, to be a part of it, so that when it came time to implement some of these solutions, we had the backing of relevant stakeholders. So we were, for instance, able to bring in the internal audit unit, a unit that we barely worked with, which which was very bad in the way that we were working, a very siloed approach to do an entire audit verification exercise, which is very time consuming, very limited resources for the unit. But they were willing to do it because they thought it was something that was useful, something that would have impact. And for the first time in history, we had established the stock of government arrears. We knew that we were accumulating arrears over the years, but we had no idea what that number looked like. We had several TAs come in from the World Bank and IMF and talk to us about stemming these arrears. But I mean the starting point, you know, needed to have been information on where we were at, you know, how do you define arrears in the first place. We realized that that in and of itself was an issue. What do those arrears look like? So that verification exercise is crucial and we were able to get it done because of the relationship we had established with the internal audit unit. So that was a key learning for the team. But the relationship between the Ministry of Finance and other line ministries is crucial, but also the relationships between the different units and directives within the ministry was a missing link in the way that we were working on it. So that was a huge win for the ministry, something that we could project to partners that we were doing something about the issue of arrears and that we were serious about it, but also signal to other line ministries that the Ministry of Finance was serious about tackling this issue. So that was one key win. And then also we were able to gather information again, a key part of this approach of gathering evidence on your problems. We face a problem then to what extent? So also gather some data on environments for the biggest offenders. Where's the money going? Where's the money being transferred from and to. So in identifying those things, we were able to then be better armed during the budget preparation process. Right? So with that information on who has a lot of arrears, who is moving funds between budget lines doing budget implementation, we were able to have a more productive budget preparation process and engagement during that year. So a year later, we realized that we had been able to stem the environment by 20%. Because of some of the interventions that we had come up with because of the orientation also to senior management within the Ministry of Finance, that the budget that the Parliament votes for at the end of the year is essentially not the budget that we implemented because during the course of the year you are approving all these easements of funds. So those two things were huge, huge wins for the team.
Salimah Samji That's an impressive achievement that your team had there. So the program ends December 2017, and then our engagement with you ends and your engagement with this program. And then what happens?
Awa Touray So then I transition from the Ministry of Finance. I get an opportunity to join CABRI, the Collaborative Africa Budget Reform Initiative. And I took the job largely because I saw the potential to do what I had just done with my team from the Gambia across the continent. It was an opportunity to join CABRI and be a core part of the program that leads the building PFM capabilities work. So I joined CABRI, actually in November, but in person in late December, after to the end of the program. And after joining CABRI, then I had an opportunity to now transition from using PDIA as a member within a team to coaching country teams with the use of PDIA approach. I did this in South Africa, in Rwanda, in Lesotho, and in Ghana and Liberia over the course of three years.
Salimah Samji So you went from a junior member of your team in The Gambia, taking this training, seeing how impactful it can be, how different it is, and how you can actually achieve real results, to saying why my country only when I can do this for my continent, and flipping to the other side and doing training in so many countries. In your time at CABRI, being on the other side of being on the team for the Building Public Financial Management Capabilities program, what did you learn and what was that experience like?
Awa Touray Honestly, it was it was life changing and it was very exciting. I felt like I was an international public servant, right? Being able to do work in finance ministries in various countries. So in Rwanda, just looking at the sheer work ethic within the ministry, within the public service in Rwanda. So I coached the team that was working on limited participation of citizens within the budget process. Right. And Rwanda is a unique experience because there's a lot of bureaucracy in the public service, whereas, for instance, I was coming from Gambia, where it was very empowered right in terms of being able to just move as soon as our peers bought into this approach and this framework. We were given the green light to do whatever was necessary to get things done. And in Rwanda, there was a lot of bureaucracy that was required in order for the team to move things. And so for me, that was a huge learning curve in terms of expanding the change space. So how do you maneuver bureaucracies that are a lot more rigid than, let's say, Ghana or the Gambia that I've worked in, or even South Africa which was quite easy to maneuver, especially because we were in-country. So seeing those, the dynamics in the different bureaucracies was very useful. Seeing the time commitment of civil servants within the different bureaucracies was very interesting. So the Rwandan team, for instance, had to meet over weekends to do some of this work. They had team meetings over the weekend because they would just the sheer workload and the accountability systems that existed within the bureaucracy just didn't permit them to be able to do some of this work within working hours. So that's something I commended them for, showed their dedication to the problem, their belief in the approach. So yeah, but again, this work takes, I say it everywhere, I've done this before, it's a lot of work. It takes commitment, it takes a lot of time, and it's because nobody's coming in to tell you what to do. Nobody is coming in to do the work for you. I'm currently in Liberia and those are the conversations I'm already starting to have. Guys, are you sure you want to do this? This is a lot of work and I'm not going to be the one to do it or anybody else. So giving the work back is usually a shock to the system because public servants are very used to, you know, consultants or TAs coming in and doing the work and telling them what to do. But to the contrary here, you're saying, no, you tell me. I don't know. What are the problems? Like, what's your problem? What are the causes? What do you think will solve it? Who's important? So you're the one asking the questions and sort of, you know, providing a sounding board. So that reorientation is not an easy journey. So the coaching is an integral part of supporting teams as they do PDIA.
Salimah Samji Yep, it's putting them in the driver's seat, but then sitting next to them as they learn to drive their car or even to identify what's in their car to be able to drive it. After CABRI, what did you then do?
Awa Touray So I left Capri as a full time staff in 2020 in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic. I had just had my twins, so I moved to Liberia due to personal reasons. I got married to another PDIA champion.
Salimah Samji Who was also part of your cohort. So this this storyline not only finding purpose and meaning in your work, but it also gave you a life partner.
Awa Touray Absolutely. Absolutely. I owe CABRI and this PDIA approach a lot. So yeah. I moved to Liberia and then became a consultant for CABRI. So continued coaching. I coached a team in Ghana for one cohort and then transitioned into teaching or coaching, sorry, a team in Lesotho, and then transitioned into another consulting role, which was very interesting. So the EU has this building state capability project in Sierra Leone. So I was contacted by one of their implementing partners. So they wanted to see if I was interested in supporting the project, using the PDIA approach to develop a public financial management reform strategy for the governments of Sierra Leone. I was super excited.
Salimah Samji Sounds amazing.
Awa Touray Yes, so Sierra Leone was one of the country teams in 2017, so I had some touch points there. In fact, you will be tickled to know that in 2017 we created a WhatsApp group comprising of all the country teams that were part of the program, and that WhatsApp group is still alive today.
Salimah Samji Wow. From 2017?
Awa Touray Yes, it is very much still alive. We talk politics. We talk PDIA, we talk PFM. We inform each other of our personal journeys and all of that. So we talk weddings, everything under the sun and it was through that program. And sometimes you will see team members from Lesotho and Liberia meet in the annual World Bank meetings or, you know, elsewhere. So for me, I just feel like it's been quite the journey since 2017 and it's honestly been life altering. But yeah, back to Sierra Leone. So I spent about a year working on that project, supporting the Ministry of Finance in developing a new PFM reform strategy, essentially from the PDIA angle, right. Identifying solutions, so galvanizing cross functional teams, discussing what they felt were pressing issues, looking at who they thought were the key actors, what would be key interventions that might address this. And in areas where we felt like we didn't know. In the PDIA session, the PFM reform strategy calls for more analytical work to be done. Instead of just saying, let's bring in the best practice which is what's being done in Sri Lanka. You just said, well, you're going to need to have an engagement to find out, you know, the drivers behind, let's say, revenue arrears. Right. We also use the Triple A framework to look at how we would sequence these reforms, looking at the type of political support that would be available, the resourcing, the level of stakeholder buy in. And it was a long, drawn out process. But I think at the end of the day we had a reform strategy that truly spoke to the needs of the Sierra Leone government and the key stakeholders in PFM.
Salimah Samji That's really incredible. And then so you did that through consulting, etc. And what did you take on next?
Awa Touray So I am onto my next challenge in July, I moved back to Liberia to join a new USAID project as the Deputy Chief of Party. And again, PDIA seems to follow me everywhere. A huge anchor, a guiding framework for this project is PDIA. So PDIA is the framework that we are trying to use to strengthen the education system in Liberia. So the project is called Education Systems Strengthening Activity. It's a five year project being implemented by FHI360 but being funded by USAID. And it really is about putting the Ministry of Education in the driver's seat and providing support so that they can address certain systemic issues. And PDIA is going to be at the heart of that, working with Central MOE teams and supporting them to identify problems and the accompanying solutions. But going further to the subnational level, which is where we feel most of the problems lie, and establishing teams within six of the biggest counties in Liberia and support them to identify their problems and the accompanying solutions as well. In fact, I was in the field the whole of the last week visiting four out of the 6 counties, and I'll send you a picture after this, Salimah, in one of the county offices that we went to, they already have a room that is designated for this PDIA program that we are about to launch. So it says ESSA PDIA. So they're very excited that we are about to launch this new program using this approach. We've already had one training where we introduce this framework broadly and what it can do. And like me in 2017, there is a lot of interest and a lot of excitement because it is about doing development differently and it is about empowering local agents and allowing them the opportunity to solve their problems in their own way in a way that's sustainable and speaks to their needs.
Salimah Samji It really is remarkable to have seen your journey through, you know, from 2017 where we had designed this PDIA Action Learning Training Program for CABRI to like where that puts you off and continue to work, whether it's the variety of donors even that you have worked with, with the Gates Foundation being the big funder, CABRI, and then the EU and now USAID, but always Africa. And it's actually nice to see, while most of it has been around your core competency in public financial management, you are now moving to another sector altogether with education in Liberia on this USAID project. And I think it's really inspirational for us because we train people and then we leave, which is what we want to do with the folks that the people that we train will take our tools and approaches and make it theirs and be able to really help people around the world solve complex problems. When we hear stories like yours, it's really inspirational for what we do.
Awa Touray Oh wow. Yeah. So I'm super excited, honestly, to be working in a different sector. Education is an area that I've always been passionate about. So when this opportunity came to do PDIA again and then in education, it was a dream come true, honestly. And I'm so excited to see where this goes.
Salimah Samji Wonderful. You know, thank you so much for sharing, you know, this journey of yours with our listeners. I think it can really be valuable to help people see what participants in our programs can do with the training they receive. And I think the last question that I would ask is what would be some words of wisdom you would give to people who want to practice PDIA?
Awa Touray I would just say make it your own. My first instinct when PDIA, was introduced to me was that I felt empowered. And it's really about empowering people to be able to take on the challenges they face in their day to day, in their area of work. We have the capacity to address our own problems. We do not need anybody flying in to tell us what will work and what will not work. So I think, you know, just that belief that we can do it. So let's tap into our own local capabilities and will be able to solve, I think to a large extent, our problems in our own manner.
Salimah Samji That's beautiful. Thank you very much, Awa. This has been a real delight to be able to share this with our listeners. Thank you, Awa.
Awa Touray Thank you, Salimah.
Kathryn Lang Thank you for listening to our podcast today. If you liked it, please check out our website, bsc.hks.harvard.edu or follow us on social media @HarvardBSC. You can also find links and other information under the description of this podcast.